‘Career Conversations’ Podcast: Logan Yonavjak ’16, Finance & Natural Capital

Logan is a financial services professional, entrepreneur, author, and angel investor. She's incredibly passionate about building businesses and guiding capital in ways that replenish, restore, and sustain our social, environmental, and economic systems to advance a more holistic future for all. Throughout her career, she has worked as a consultant to a variety of clients, primarily focused on conserving and restoring ecological systems. Most recently, she co-founded a sell-side advisory firm focused on food & agriculture called Provenance Capital Group. She has also held positions with Morgan Stanley, the Yale Investments Office, and CREO Syndicate. 

Her work in financial services has involved connecting high net worth individuals and other investors to direct and fund investments. She has also developed a variety of new investment vehicles, particularly focused on real assets, and has written extensively about how to invest for people, planet, and profit. She also advises a variety of impact-oriented startups, on both capital raising and impact measurement, and has been a mentor for a variety of incubators and accelerators, including FS6 and Village Capital.

Logan is a Startingblock Fellow, a PERC Fellow, a Kinship Fellow, an OnDeck Build for Climate Tech Fellow, and a Pipeline Angels Fellow. Since 2017, Logan has served on the Board of Slow Money NYC, a local network of Slow Money, a national non-profit catalyzing investment in sustainable food and farms. In addition to her Master of Forestry and MBA from Yale, she holds a B.A. with Distinction from UNC Chapel Hill.

Jenn Burkha: (00:20)
Welcome to Career Conversations, a podcast from the Yale School of Management. Each episode of Career Conversations is a candid conversation with a member of the Yale community, who's doing something that we're curious about. I'm Jenn Burkha a recent MBA graduate from the class of 2021.

Jenn Burkha: (00:36)
Today's conversation is with Logan, a 2016 graduate of the Yale School of Management and Yale School of the Environment. Logan is a financial services professional, social entrepreneur, and author. Most recently she co-founded Provenance Capital Group, a financial services firm based in San Francisco that focuses on allocating capital to regenerative natural resources. Prior to co-founding PCG, Logan worked as a consultant with a variety of clients, primarily focused on working lands investments. She has also held positions with CREO Syndicate, the Yale Investments Office, and Align Impact. So, Logan, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. Could you please introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us what you do?

Logan Yonavjak: (01:14)
My name is Logan Yonavjak and I'm Yale class of 2016. I did the Joint Executive MBA and Master of Forestry with the Yale School of the Environment.

Jenn Burkha: (01:25)
Great. I would love to hear a little bit more about your career journey and what has changed specifically in the regenerative movement and impact investing since you first began.

Logan Yonavjak: (01:36)
I started my career with a keen interest in the conservation and restoration of ecosystems. So, my mom is an evolutionary biologist and a conservationist, and I grew up for the first part of my childhood living in the woods, living in a rural area. And as I grew up in the Pittsboro Chapel Hill area of North Carolina, I was really struck by a lot of the sprawl development that was going on. And from my perspective, it was really intriguing that, as a society, we made choices about how we use land in a way that promoted sprawl development at the expense of working lands and open space. So, that was an ongoing question in my mind, like, what's the economic rationale behind this? And how can we move the needle and preserving and restoring some of these landscapes?

Logan Yonavjak: (02:25)
So, I started my college study around land use planning. I'm trying to understand some of the business and economic drivers behind some of those trends. And left UNC Chapel Hill in 2007 and started my career at an environmental think tank called the World Resources Institute. And when I was there, I continued to develop an understanding of market-based tools for conservation, meaning things like, it was kind of the early stages of carbon markets, payments for ecosystem services, trying to find ways to put a number, a positive number around the values that nature provides, including clean water, clean air, et cetera.

Logan Yonavjak: (03:07)
So, that was really interesting. I spent a lot of time thinking about these issues, writing white papers, doing a lot of research, talking to people. And at the end of the day, I realized that research and that kind of thinking and policy work are all very, very important. But without the financial system, without a keen understanding of the capital markets, we're really not going to meet our goals.

Logan Yonavjak: (03:31)
So, I had a really interesting experience when I was at the World Resources Institute. Our sustainability manager came in for a meeting one day and was talking about how WRI walked the walk or didn't around its own sustainability measures. And she mentioned off hand that WRI had an endowment, it was about $40 million at the time, but that we weren't really investing it according to sustainability principles. And it was just a mainstream portfolio. And that really intrigued me. I thought, "Really? We're the World Resources Institute, we care so much about effecting change for the environment and for people. And yet, we can't marry our values with our investment strategies."

Logan Yonavjak: (04:16)
So, I approached the CFO at WRI and I said, "Why don't we do sustainable investing?" And he said, "Well, doesn't that mean we make less money?" And this was not to discredit him, he was doing his job. And he was trying to maximize return for the institution to continue its efforts. However, he had not looked into it. So, I took it upon myself to do research in the area of sustainable investing. And I went back to him and I said, "No, it's doesn't necessarily mean that you lose money." So, that was the beginning of the transference of the portfolio to a new manager.

Logan Yonavjak: (04:47)
And now, WRI has a sustainable investing group. I learned that there was a whole thing called impact investing. I started reading about it and devouring as much as I could. It was at that point where I decided I really needed to be one of these people that could marry my knowledge about natural resource management with finance and business, so that I could be an effective liaison between the communities of people that were trying to effect change and move money in the direction for good.

Logan Yonavjak: (05:13)
Yale became my focal point for that. And of all the... I did a bunch of informational interviews and what was so cohesive here and obvious was everyone pointed to the Yale School of Management and the joint degree with the now Yale School of the Environment. So, I set my sights on that. And over time, put together my application and applied and luckily got in.

Logan Yonavjak: (05:38)
So, I think Yale was a game changer for me. I think it's one of the best programs in the world that you can go and study at the intersection of these various directions of finance, of sustainable investing, of impact investing, plus the natural resource management forestry environmental studies. And you can really craft your own program in many ways, so that you can become a person that can really drive, use business as a force for good and be a leader in that way.

Jenn Burkha: (06:10)
Yeah, that was really great. You're talking about mission align investing. I mean, it sounds like you were way ahead of the curve there. I took Sue Carter's impact investing class last year, and we talked about how many foundations are still not doing that. And there's definitely a movement to shift over. But it's really remarkable that it's taking this long. So, I feel like this is like the beginning of you also being an entrepreneur and making entrepreneurial decisions within a larger organization. Did you realize that at the time that maybe entrepreneurship would also play a role along with this finance interest?

Logan Yonavjak: (06:47)
I think I wanted to do whatever it was that I was best suited to do that the... You know that Venn diagram, what does the world want you to do? What will they pay you for? And what do you to do? I was always just looking for that intersection. So, I very much make decisions on people that I meet and feeling an intuitive sense of whether I should work with them or not, and whether it's something that does have a values alignment.

Logan Yonavjak: (07:12)
So, I was kind of open to a variety of different roles. I came into Yale really wanting to work for Timber Investment Management Organization, AKA at TIMO, buying and selling timberland for conservation purposes. And while I was at Yale, I was just exposed to so many different, awesome ideas and people. And my directionality changed a little bit while I was there.

Logan Yonavjak: (07:36)
So, I spent my summers at the Yale Investments Office, it was one of the biggest honors of my career to work with David Swensen. And he was an important figurehead in my life. Obviously he has had such an amazing reputation at Yale, et cetera. So, I think that opportunity, and then I worked for a private equity group that was doing wetland mitigation banking. So, I kind of got a little bit of experience under my belt.

Logan Yonavjak: (08:02)
And then, I actually moved away from entrepreneurship in some ways, and went to a large institution right after I graduated. I was recruited by Morgan Stanley's Institute for Sustainable Investing. And that was a fascinating opportunity to work for a large institution that was just at the brink of expanding its own understanding and research and offerings into sustainable investing.

Logan Yonavjak: (08:28)
I felt that it wasn't actually a great fit for me because it was kind of this, in many ways, it's like large institution really just beginning its journey. And I realized that I was someone who did want to be at that very cutting edge and forefront of change. So, for me, it wasn't the best fit. And I was lucky to find a job at an organization called CREO Syndicate, which is a network of family offices. And they were working with some of the largest families in the US and Europe who are interested in environmental finance. And then I went on to co-start my own firm a couple of years ago with three founders.

Jenn Burkha: (09:05)
Yeah. Great. I definitely want to dig into that a little bit more in a minute, but first I just wanted to go back to that time at school where you decided to go into finance with sort of without that prior experience, I think, as someone who also made that transition, I think I get asked a lot about how hard it was to switch into finance and also about being a woman in finance and I would love to hear any thoughts or advice you have on that.

Logan Yonavjak: (09:28)
Yeah. I think this is a juicy topic, both of those. So, I think that a lot of career development is about the story you tell. I certainly think it's important to have a skillset and to feel confident in that skillset and to practice whatever it is that you're interested in. I would go into networking events or meetings, and I would just talk with someone who saw ESG factors, social, governance factors, or other aspects of companies or investment strategies that maybe the mainstream financial world wasn't seeing. And that my training up until that point was understanding the social and environmental systems upon which business depends and their business [inaudible 00:10:17] once they incorporate those factors.

Logan Yonavjak: (10:19)
So, angle that I took in describing myself, and then eventually I got enough experience where I could stand with two feet and say, "Yes, I'm actually a person who can do due diligence, who can help make investment decisions," et cetera. So that's just a little bit on, I think, the strategy that I took is just recognizing that often you're telling a story yourself and that when you can craft a story in a way that's not necessarily not aligned with you, but that is kind of pushing them in the direction of who you want to become.

Jenn Burkha: (10:53)
Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. And I think that one of the things that I learned was that you just have to really be dedicated towards why you want to do it, and then finding people that are going to be supportive in your transition and listen to the story you're telling. And if they're not open to that story, then it's probably not the right place for you to work anyway, but there are definitely those opportunities for career switchers.

Logan Yonavjak: (11:19)
Absolutely.

Jenn Burkha: (11:20)
Yeah. Yeah. And then, how about, I would love to hear about your experience as being a woman in finance and how that's maybe changed even since you first started in 2016. I know it's only been five years, but I imagine there's been some change in that as well.

Logan Yonavjak: (11:36)
I think there's a lot of narrative around diversity and inclusion and gender dynamics right now. And it's a very, very important conversation. I think historically the financial services industry has been dominated by men. I think that has an effect on women. And it had on me to the extent that I just didn't see myself necessarily with a career trajectory in the financial services world, especially since no one in my family was really in it.

Logan Yonavjak: (12:04)
So, I think it's great that we're kind of moving into a phase in our society where we're talking about these things more explicitly. And I would just say, having more mentors, seeing more women in finance in different aspects of this space is really what's going to turn more women onto it. And I definitely think it's an exciting space to be in. I think there are so many opportunities and I just want to be someone who can help get women who are excited about finance seeing that opportunity set earlier in their careers, because I didn't have that advantage necessarily.

Jenn Burkha: (12:39)
That's great. I completely agree. And I think I started getting asked, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" And I kept saying, "If I get into finance, I want to be in the position to help women that want to make this transition, and to make it more obtainable and to see those role models as well." So, I think that's great insights into that. So, now, I'd love to dive a little bit more into your entrepreneurial journey and starting your own funds and would love to know how that came about and what you felt as you were embarking on this really entrepreneurial pursuit.

Logan Yonavjak: (13:14)
Yeah, absolutely. So, co-founding my own firm was an extraordinary experience. I had the privilege of meeting three co-founders in kind of the fall of 2019. I was at a SOCAP conference, actually, when this all came together, which is a great conference for anyone interested in impact investing. But I had been doing some independent consulting after I left CREO Syndicate. I was interested in being in a private sector firm. I was interested in something where I could focus on a theme, because CREO is very broad and it's thematic focus.

Logan Yonavjak: (13:52)
And I was interested in co-founding something and really getting in on the ground floor of that. So, all of that came to fruition. I met my two co-founders, first, Adrian and FJ, and then we brought in an investor and other co-founder as well. And the company's called Provenance Capital Group. We were very clear that we wanted to focus on forestry and food and fiber. So, we call that collectively regenerative natural resources.

Logan Yonavjak: (14:23)
And the four of us really, at the time, when we started this, were all in alignment that impact investing is great, there's a lot of really positive momentum happening in the space, but that the narrative isn't necessarily aligned with the concept of regenerative yet, which I'll describe in my own words is really that we need to heal a lot of what's happened in the extractive, in a lot of extractive industries. We have to heal soil, we have to heal landscapes, we have to heal how we work with communities and workers before we can really sustain anything.

Logan Yonavjak: (15:04)
So, the concepts of sustainability, we don't really want to sustain what we have now necessarily. We really need of regenerate and heal first. So, that's kind of the underpinning of the concept of regenerative. So, the four of us really wanted to build a firm that was squarely focused on regenerative natural resource management.

Logan Yonavjak: (15:26)
So, we started on the buy side and a sell side, meaning we were going to serve as investors who were interested in reallocating their portfolio towards regenerative natural resources. And we were also interested in helping companies raise capital, and that would be called the sell side. So, we were kind of playing both sides at the beginning. And then, eventually, we realized that the white space was really on the sell side and in helping those regenerative pioneers, for lack of a better word, those entrepreneurs who really wanted to build companies that were regenerative. We wanted to help give them access to capital in a way that was... Not that VC capital is always negative, it can be very positive, but it's not always appropriate for the types of companies that we were trying to get to scale.

Logan Yonavjak: (16:23)
We basically took a turn earlier this year and decided to focus squarely on sell side advisory, meaning that we were all going to become agents and be able to sell securities in these companies to impact investors. So, my role was... I actually left the firm in October, but my role was primarily investor relations and marketing.

Jenn Burkha: (16:48)
That's super interesting. And how were you defining what made something regenerative? I mean, I know there's a lot of talk about ESG metrics and impact metrics, and now we're adding regenerative metrics to a mix. How do you deal with that as an entrepreneur? It's trying to almost write the industry and pioneer it.

Logan Yonavjak: (17:08)
Yeah, no, I think that's where the devils in the details for sure. We started this process called, we named it, the regenerative quotient, kind of as a play on words for the IQ or the EQ, the concept that the leaders of today that will help us transition to a regenerative economy are going to have high RQ, or regenerative quotient. So, I love that.

Logan Yonavjak: (17:33)
So, from that, we started building out an early screening tool that we would use to basically interview companies that we wanted to work with. And then, a lot deeper due diligence framework and set of metrics. And to some degree there's, I won't go into all the details, because I think it took us a while and I think it's definitely still a work in progress.

Logan Yonavjak: (17:58)
But, for me, the key insights right now for the stage of company that we were working with or are working with is that early stage companies, in many ways, you're making a bet on the team, to a large degree, you're making a bet on a team. We were sort of working with C to, I would say, series B. And so there's a lot that gets uncovered with the intent of the team. To a large degree, the conversations with the team were really the focal point of the framework to begin with. Because I think having a conversation with people, you can quickly assess whether or not they have a regenerative mindset just in the way that they talk about the business they're building, some of the research they've incorporated, some of the impacts they want to have. So, the philosophy and the value system behind that, you can get with some key questions and I think an interview with the team. So, until there's better metrics, until there's a clear framework, that's kind of what our core focus was.

Jenn Burkha: (18:58)
That's really interesting. And it makes a lot of sense for early stage. I guess I'd be curious to know how you would advise a large company on regenerative practices, especially when they're just now getting their handle on ESG.

Logan Yonavjak: (19:11)
I think there's a lot of layers to that. It depends on the sector and it depends on what their goals and objectives are. And again, also teams' intent. I think you can break large teams down into smaller teams. And it just depends on... There's aspects of like, you can build out regenerative practices within aspects of a larger company, even though the whole company might not be ready to make the full transition. So, I think there's a lot of ways to approach that. And I'm happy to dive into that at some point, but I think that's just a longer discussion.

Jenn Burkha: (19:49)
No, absolutely. I think if we had an easy solution for that, we'd already be doing it.

Logan Yonavjak: (19:54)
Yeah.

Jenn Burkha: (19:54)
Yeah. So, you said you recently left Provenance. So, what's next?

Logan Yonavjak: (20:02)
I'm figuring that out. I'm still very interested in the natural resources space and my interest continues to lie in building out networks of investors who really care about moving their money for good. So, I've spent a lot of my career networking and building those relationships. So, I think likely I would do some work with a firm on building out their investor network and helping continuing to figure out how best to invest in the natural resources space. So, that's what I'm focused on right now.

Jenn Burkha: (20:40)
And I know you're pretty involved with CBEY and I believe with the alumni group, are you tapping into that as part of that networking?

Logan Yonavjak: (20:50)
I've actually been taking a bit of a sabbatical. Since I started my career, I haven't taken a lot of vacation time over the years. So, it's been nice just taking a pause. But I would absolutely, I will be reaching out to a lot of the community that I built at Yale and certainly through CBEY and whatnot. So yeah, when the time is right, I'm going to activate those relationships for sure.

Jenn Burkha: (21:14)
Yeah. That makes sense. Absolutely. And it sounds like... I would love to be taking a sabbatical. That sounds great. So yeah, enjoy that.

Logan Yonavjak: (21:23)
Part of the regenerative process, you know?

Jenn Burkha: (21:26)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, some forward thinking questions, I guess, where do you see ESG and impact investing and I guess, and regenerative, we'll add that in there too, going in the next five to 10 years? Do you think it's going to be table stakes? Do you think people are going to get rid of ESG professionals because it'll just be so embedded? Or what do you think the future might hold?

Logan Yonavjak: (21:48)
Well, it's been a dream of mine for a long time to not hear the word impact investing sector, because it is not a sector, it is a way of thinking about investing. And I can't wait for the day that we have no ESG professionals, as you said, or anyone who calls themselves impact investing professionals, it is just the way it's done. So, I think that's my aspirational goal.

Logan Yonavjak: (22:15)
I have to say, I've seen tremendous momentum over the past 10 years that I've been involved. I feel like the term impact investing was coined in 2007, and then not that it wasn't happening before that, but that was an important benchmark. I think it's just like any adoption curve, you see the early adopters at first, people blowing the whistle on things needing to change. Then, you start seeing the later adopters coming in when something starts to become mainstream. And I think we're absolutely seeing that.

Logan Yonavjak: (22:51)
You see really interesting movements in the space, like Imprint Capital getting acquired by Goldman Sachs. I would say all the bulge bracket banks now have an impact investing, sustainable investing group. And that's a really good sign. The US SIF tracks the amount of capital that's invested according to some sustainable investing category. And I think it's one in every $5 of investment of assets under management is now invested according to some sustainable investing characteristics.

Logan Yonavjak: (23:25)
So, while that can be watered down to some degree or another, and I don't trust most ESG approaches yet, I still think that's a really good sign. I think we're also hearing the drum beat louder and louder on climate change as well. And I think that's precipitating a lot of movement of a lot of different investors to move their money for good too. So, I mean, I'm really hopeful. I think we're going to see even more progress over the next 10 years, and I'm really excited, as I said, to not ever hear the word impact or ESG in 10 years.

Jenn Burkha: (24:04)
Wow. I love that. I totally agree. Although I guess my follow up question then is, does that mean that being in finance will also require you to understand impact metrics in that world view?

Logan Yonavjak: (24:19)
I sure hope so. I think that SASB has done an incredible job in helping to define metrics for the public markets and putting standardized approaches into the 10-K filings for large public companies to really report on in metrics. And they have a certification now for ESG professionals to get certified to use ESG metrics, and I'm forgetting the term, but that's a really hopeful sign. I think we have the Global Impact Investing Network's IRIS metrics, they've been around for a decade or so now, building out a taxonomy of impact metrics for the impact investing space. So, I think we're seeing a lot more credentials coming out, a lot more professionals who are labeling themselves as such, and that's just a really hopeful sign.

Jenn Burkha: (25:14)
Yeah, absolutely. And then we even had that article in The New York Times this month about how MBAs are putting more ESG into their core programming and their core classes, which I think is great. I think at Yale with business and society, Yale's maybe a little bit ahead of the curve, but it's great to see all of the MBA programs really making a commitment to ESG.

Logan Yonavjak: (25:35)
Well, I'd love to see Yale get away from the traditional MBA scoring metrics, if you will, and ranking metrics, and really stepping out and being a leader in how it ranks itself according to more ESG criteria and whether or not it's promoting sustainable business in its curriculum and things like that. I just haven't seen Yale really go out on a limb in that way. So, that would be great to see.

Jenn Burkha: (26:02)
I love that. Maybe they need to reach out to you to help to help create them.

Logan Yonavjak: (26:08)
I'm open, door's open, door's open.

Jenn Burkha: (26:11)
Well, that's really great. Going back to your time at Yale and to the audience of this podcast would love to know if you have any advice for MBAs looking to work in one of these fields, whether or not they've come from this backgrounds or not.

Logan Yonavjak: (26:29)
Well, this is one of my favorite topics and I actually get asked this a lot. So, there's a lot of different ways to think about career development. But I like to think about what roles, again, that Venn diagram of what are you good at? What will the world pay you for? What's needed? So, I find that thinking a little bit about the type of work that one is interested in, that's the point of an internship, obviously, it's really helpful to get some experience if you haven't had it before in the finance space for instance.

Logan Yonavjak: (27:03)
I think there's, I guess, I'll keep it to impact investing, since that's what I know best, but thinking about what side of the coin you want to be on is a really helpful thing. So, even the buy side and sell side conversation, is it of interest to deploy capital and to be the one making decisions around how capital's invested? Or is it more of interest to be someone who's attracting capital? Maybe if you're more entrepreneurial in nature, starting your own company or being someone who brokers that financial investment kind of like what Provenance Capital has been doing on the sell side.

Logan Yonavjak: (27:47)
So, which side do you want to play on? What kinds of activities do you enjoy? Do you enjoy doing research? Do you like being behind a desk and doing analysis and help thinking through companies or investments? Or do you like building relationships with investors? It's just really thinking about the types of work that you like to do.

Logan Yonavjak: (28:13)
And then, I think also a lot about the size of companies. So, I've had experience working for obviously starting my own company, but also at a really large firm. I felt that after I had the experience working in a large firm, culturally, it wasn't a fit for me. It was just to... I really like having the opportunity to work on a whole lot of different things. I love to be nimble and I love new ideas and being able to take those and run with them. I felt like at a big firm, there's just a lot more structure and a lot more process that you have to follow and a lot more hierarchy.

Logan Yonavjak: (28:48)
So, it's like, what do you enjoy? What kinds of activities you enjoy? And then really one of the best exercises I recommend to people is to go find some firms that you like, that you're attracted to, and then read the bios of the people that are at those firms and see how you can acquire some of those experiences.

Logan Yonavjak: (29:09)
Obviously, there's an amazing network at Yale. You can follow up with alumni in those positions. I've found that most organizations I ever wanted to work for, there's a Yale person, there's a Yale alumni there. So, that makes things easier. So, yeah, I think a lot of it's just honing in and really asking yourself questions about what you enjoy? What kinds of work you like to do? And then talking to people who do those things and trying to get some experience from there.

Jenn Burkha: (29:37)
That's great, Logan. So, last question is, is there anything we didn't ask you about your career or SOM that you would like to share?

Logan Yonavjak: (29:45)
SOM is just, both, the Yale School of the Environment, SOM, are incredible places, you can't possibly do everything you want to do while you're there, which is unfortunate, but I just feel like taking advantage of the student groups that were responsible investing, I thought the MIINT competition was amazing. Getting to know professors one on one, trying to work on projects with them, and then really using the internships as an opportunity to gain experience in areas that you want and really taking chances with yourself for those summer opportunities and not playing it safe.

Logan Yonavjak: (30:23)
I think it's just really important to use the opportunity, whether it's you're there for two or three years to work on yourself and to do things that are going to help advance your joy around what you do. Because I think there's a lot of people that do careers because they should do them. And there's a lot of shoulding. But I think that it really is important to follow your joy in your career and take steps in those directions. Because there's a lot of things you could do, but not a lot of things that necessarily bring that joy into the equation. So, I think that's an important message I would like to share.

Logan Yonavjak: (31:03)
And I think for me, for instance, the first job I took out of school was something that ended up not bringing me a lot of joy. And it took a while to do a bit of a course correction after that. So I kind of wish I'd listened to myself a little bit more going into it and talk to mentors and colleagues and friends that knew me. And I think they would've, if I'd done that more, I think they would've steered me out of that decision.

Jenn Burkha: (31:30)
Well, great. Thanks so much for being here, Logan, and this was really great conversation. So, so glad you could join us.

Logan Yonavjak: (31:36)
Okay. Well, it was great. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: (31:38)
You've been listening to Career Conversations, a podcast from the Yale School of Management. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe. You can find us on Apple Podcasts or however you take your podcasts. Career Conversations is produced by Yale SOM, our producers are Amy Kundrat and Emily Kling. Our editor is Laurie Toth. Our theme music was arranged by Dakota Stipp and Liam Bellman-Sharpe. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll tune in again.