‘Career Conversations’ Podcast: Billy Marks ’18

Billy Marks ’18 is a Leadership and Career Coach at The Sparrey Consulting Group.  

With over a decade of coaching and mentoring under his belt, Billy finds true delight in helping others better understand their motivations and fast track their goals. Billy received his B.A. cum laude from Harvard University and his M.B.A. from the Yale School of Management.  Prior to his M.B.A., Billy worked in Clifford Chance’s cross-border asset finance practice and as a senior compliance officer at JPMorgan Chase, where he also was as a Global Lead for JPMC’s LGBTQ employee resource group.  For the last two years, he was a People leader at Stripe, where he drove technical solutions to metabolize Stripe’s 5x growth and accelerate the development of top talent. When he’s not with clients, he can be found skiing, gaming, or exploring San Francisco’s music scene.

Billy Marks (00:01):

Management and working dynamics, are hyper-localized. What allowed me to thrive, in helping scale that training, was really just listening to our user groups and then working with them to find the right types of advocates that cared about those same issues.

Omolegho Udugbezi (00:18):

Welcome to Career Conversations, a podcast in the Yale School of Management. I'm, [OGO 00:00:22], a student in the MBA class of 2023. Each episode is a kind of conversation between a student here at SOM, that's me, and a member of the Yale community who was doing something, that I'm curious about, kind of like an informational interview, except you get to listen in.

Omolegho Udugbezi (00:37):

Today's conversations with Billy Marks, a 2018 grad of the SOM. He's a leadership and career coach at the Sparrey Consulting Group, prior to joining Sparrey, Billy earned his MBA at Yale SOM, he previously worked as a senior program manager at JP Morgan, where he was also a global lead of the LGBTQ+ Employee Resource Group. He received his AB from Harvard University, cum laude, where he majored in language and culture, and economic development. Billy currently resides in the Bay Area but calls Massachusetts home.

Omolegho Udugbezi (01:06):

Billy, thank you so much for being here with me today. You have such an impressive career. So, can you please just take a second to walk me through your career today, and share any achievements you are especially proud of?

Billy Marks (01:16):

Yeah, well, impressive. Sure. I mean, for me, I feel like it's been driven by a lot of exploration and experimentation. I mean, gosh, my first jobs were probably while I was in school and undergrad. I started off in internships, and summer work, and publishing, and education. I had studied humanities, and really, wanted to think about the type of impact, I wanted to make in the world. Interested in, kind of, sustainable, economic development, and just figuring out what I wanted to do in the world. Right? And so, wasn't sure if I wanted to be a lawyer, or do public policy. And so, I started off using my first job, out of school, as, a way to experiment. So, I started as a paralegal. I joined Clifford Chance, a law firm based out of London, but with offices around the world, doing, kind of, global finance work for various infrastructure deals. So, got exposed to, kind of, the economic development side of things.

Billy Marks (02:10):

But kind of quickly, realized, I didn't want to be a lawyer and found that, from being a paralegal, there's really, one direction forward, kind of quickly, realized that I didn't necessarily like the skillset and lifestyle of, what a lawyer's life and work would be. And so, I was, starting to experiment with other opportunities. So, I joined an investment bank, JP Morgan, as a compliance officer. So, kind of, a small pivot away from paralegal work, who relied on those same types of skill sets. And it was, while I was at JPMC, that I had the bandwidth to take on volunteer opportunities, within the bank. And so, I joined the LGBTQ Employee Resource Group as a global advocacy lead, in my free time. And led a group of volunteers around, advocating for queer employee rights, right?

Billy Marks (03:00):

So, building new resources for trans employees, advocating with the new marriage bills that were coming out in 2014, and, actually, my most, couple of my favorite accomplishment, and probably biggest moment for me in my early career was training individual managers, frontline managers, in various offices, 18 different offices around the world. Why it's important to include LGBTQ folk, and how to do so in a way that is, creates belonging, and motivation that community, right? So, you're talking about, ATM managers, in Miami and Tallahassee, and invest asset managers, in Japan, and India, right? That might not necessarily have the same cultural background. And so, working with a team of volunteers to up-skill those frontline managers was the kind of spark from my career, that was like, hey, oh, I really like this training and development work. I really enjoy up-skilling other people.

Billy Marks (03:59):

And as I look through some of the through lines in my career, that kind of focus on human development was really, kind of powerful. And so, it was that moment where I was like, oh, I want to do this full-time. I want to really, try to pivot to this. And so, that's what brought me to SOM, and then what, kind of, propelled me to work in the people space.

Billy Marks (04:17):

And now, after two years working for Stripe, a hyper-growth startup here in the Bay Area, helping scale some of our internal people, and development tools for managers, leaders, and employees, I've now joined a smaller boutique career management firm called Sparrey Consulting, where I do more, one-to-one, career coaching and development work.

Billy Marks (04:40):

So, I've kind of operated across different scales of impact in the kind of, development space. But it's really, seeing, I think, some of those testimonials around either people accomplishing what they wanted to through some of the coaching work, or the development work that I've done, or those moments of, wow, I didn't realize that this was such an important thing to learn about, or I didn't understand why talking about diversity in a financial services firm was important, both to my clients, or to my team. And so, it's those small aha moments in the clients, and people that I work with, that continue to propel and motivate my work in this space.

Omolegho Udugbezi (05:13):

That's amazing. When I think of your background, the work that comes to mind is just, it's rich, rich, and varied. Thank you for sharing that stories. I'd love to kind of deep dive a bit, just on the piece around kind of, training managers on inclusivity, in the previous role. So, kind of just listening to that, I infer that you were, maybe, a bit more junior when you started this work. So, how did, you influence these senior managers, being relatively junior? How did you kind of, bring them around to understanding the importance of inclusivity in the spaces they worked in? What were kind of, the tips and tricks that you could share about influencing others?

Billy Marks (05:45):

Yeah, that's a great question. I can't claim all credit, truthfully. I was really lucky when I joined JP Morgan, that I was working for an out-gay manager who also was an active participant in the queer community, at work. When I was looking at volunteer opportunities through the employee resource group, my co-chair of the team that I was working with, was maybe, I think, 20 years older, than I was, right. And so, he was an executive director of multiple titles, above me. And so, it was a really, great mentorship opportunity to step into, and see someone like myself in a similar role, and engaging with the type of, kind of, audience that we were working with. So, I think, one, there's always a level of credibility that's important, I think. And so, having someone to a mirror and to protege under, I think was, I think, a really, important opportunity for me, or for anyone who's from an underrepresented group, right? Seeing yourself in those positions is important.

Billy Marks (06:47):

So, I think that's a baseline foundation of that, I think in terms of managing that influence, right? I think that's where the subtle forms of communication, and engagement, I think are really, important, right? Recognizing that when you're talking to a partner in a different part of the world, understanding why, would they want to speak to me and my co-lead, around, why this kind of training is important. Right. Recognizing that, okay, well, they're a managing director, they've been here for a few years. Let's make sure that we have a senior counterpart in that conversation that they respect. Right? So that there's some level of hierarchy and respect that's involved, and then really, just localize the conversation as much as possible to the use cases of their teams and their region. Right?

Billy Marks (07:36):

I think that we often forget the management and working dynamics are hyper-localized. What allowed me to thrive in helping scale that training was really, just listening to our user groups, and then working with them to find the right types of advocates that cared about those same issues within that group. So, that was kind of, how we went about getting different managers and leaders on board to the training. And then, actually, when we're in the training, and we're engaging with frontline managers, that's where we really, relied, on both statistics, right? Like, here's some data that shows what attrition and retention and actual testimonials from queer or underrepresented minorities feel like in the workplace. These are the things that we have heard in our own organization. Things just like, I feel unsafe to work here, I don't really feel comfortable being myself and that makes my performance lower. Right?

Billy Marks (08:29):

And so, actually, relying on, some of that kind of, first person testimonial, and then a lot of what we did was to flip it on them, right? To, kind of, create workshops and scenarios and situations that spoke to those individuals. And so, I think it's, I think, really, thinking about the change curve, right? Where are, the different kind of stakeholders that are in this organization? Where are they in understanding why this is an issue?

Billy Marks (08:54):

And ultimately, I'd say the biggest kind of change lever for us was, we have queer clients. We have clients that are black, we have clients that are English. We have clients that look like these people that, in our internal environment, we're not necessarily being inclusive, and that's losing business. Right? When we think about really, making a strong economic and business case around, hey, queer people make up 10% of the workforce, right? And we have clients that are queer, or underrepresented. And if we don't necessarily understand them, we're never going to be able to retain their business over the long run. So yeah, a variety of different levers, I think we're important to influencing kind of, those outcomes at the bank.

Omolegho Udugbezi (09:34):

Well, thank you for sharing. I've been making notes. The key takeaways I'm hearing is communication, engagement, and just listening and learning. So, thank you for sharing. What I'm hearing, as you kind of, describe your career journey today, is that you have very much a values driven approach to your career. So, you're doing work, right now, that aligns with your personal values, and kind of bring that into the professional sphere, which for me, as a current job seeker, as an MBA student is super important. So, I'm curious to hear about any conversations you may have with your clients about the same topic, about bringing their whole selves into the workplace, bring their whole selves into the job search so they can find their authentic place in [inaudible 00:10:10] work and how that conversation kind of, goes between you and your clients.

Billy Marks (10:13):

So, currently, I'm working 101 with, kind of, pre-MBA clients, or kind of like, early-stage professionals who are looking to go to grad school, or to make kind of some big career change, or folks that are kind of, have been in their career spaces for maybe seven years or longer, that are unhappy or unsatisfied. Right? And so, I think in this environment today, I think people are much more sensitive to what's really, working for them and what's not working for them in their environments and in their workplaces.

Billy Marks (10:45):

And so, I often think that the conversations around roles, or functions, or industries are really, just the surface language that we use, to talk about the work, but there's so much underneath that surface, right? I think of the tip of the iceberg is the role, the function, the job description, but underneath all of that, are the work environment. The day-to-day tasks, the people you engage with, the ratios of your time, are you doing more introverted work? Are you doing much more client facing work? And I think, it's those types of, kind of, components of work that don't get enough attention from people when we're actually, thinking about designing the types of day-to-day, life experiences that we have.

Billy Marks (11:26):

I think that like by making a big career switch or change, they're going to solve a lot of these problems, and that's probably the case. Right? But I think a lot about Amy Wrzesniewski's, work and job crafting and job calling, right? Where she studied custodial staff in a hospital environment, and half of them, described their jobs as, oh, I clean, I clean up after patients, and the other half were, I create, my job is to create a warm and welcoming environment for patients. And just the framing around what they do and how they look at their tasks, at a correlation with their satisfaction and happiness, and how they kind of felt connected to their careers. And I think that's really the case in a lot of the ways that I work with some of my clients, right?

Billy Marks (12:08):

So, when I say that is, really, having them get really clear on what it is they enjoy doing, what they want to attract into their jobs, and actively seeking that out on a day-to-day, whether that's making small changes to their eight-hour-work-day. Okay. If eight of their hours is spent doing certain tasks, can they try to manage it so that maybe six of those hours are dedicated to that, and then maybe the two others are dedicated to something that feels much more like a calling, that's related to that work. Right? And when you think about, a 1% positive change on the day-to-day, over 30 days, if you make that kind of change, you're looking at a 34% increase in satisfaction. That's like, obviously, very simplified, right? But I think it's with those small daily habits, that we can make changes.

Billy Marks (12:52):

And so, I start with my clients, first and foremost, about understanding, what is really, exciting to you about the work? What tasks do you enjoy? What scale and scope of impact do you like making, right? Or to our earlier conversation? I didn't really, like making large policy change around development. I, wanted to, actually, see individual one-to-one change in the people that I worked with. And that was a really, driving motivator for me. I think, a lot of the way that I work with clients is thinking about those components and then challenging them to say, okay, how do you then start to, when you're interviewing or looking for new roles, what are questions you can ask that will, actually, give you the Intel, and help you test the assumptions of whether that new role or that new opportunity is aligned with that particular, attribute or value, right?

Billy Marks (13:39):

And so, maybe, you really, want a job that's creative, and you're going to be a builder, right? And just because a product management role seems creative in building, doesn't necessarily mean that the environment in which that role operates gives you a lot of creativity and autonomy, right? There might be a lot of political requirements, and stakeholders, that you have to engage with. So, I think really, getting clear with people on what their north stars are, and some of those other attributes will, I think, allow people to have more individualized career satisfaction versus like, oh, I want a particular, external role, or title. Right? And so, that's really, where a lot of, I think, the meat of the work that I do, and we do, it is focused on.

Omolegho Udugbezi (14:18):

That's so interesting, that you mentioned professor Amy, actually, cause I'm taking her class right now, her HR class. And we have these conversations from both the perspective of the employee and the employer, thinking what brings people, joy in the workplace, well, about extra, X, many dollars, bring them joy or will it be that autonomy, that space to create? And I think, it's very interesting that you work with people to kind of help them think about it this way. Cause I think, too many times people kind of say, oh, this job is working at this company, or it's this title, and they just go for it without really, thinking, well, what does it give me? Or what can I bring to this job?

Omolegho Udugbezi (14:53):

So, at a more micro microscopic level, kind of zooming out if we consider the labor market as is today, coming through the pandemic, everything that's happening with, the great resignation, or the great re-shuffling, what do you think this means for the future of work, in terms of people looking for jobs, type of jobs looking for then also, from your perspective, the kind of coaching we need to get through this period?

Billy Marks (15:14):

Yeah. That's a great question. I've been thinking a lot about this and talking and reading about it. Right? There's a lot out there. I don't know. I think about inflation, I think about recent IPOs and how they've been down. I think there's going to be less of a focus on hyper-growth craziness in the markets, right? I think we've seen these really, important and innovative organizations scale quickly, get a lot of capital grow, and people are kind of flocking to them, right? Like Uber, Stripe, even just Facebook, in the last 10 years. Right? And so I, actually, think that there's going to be a softening there, and I think going to be more of a stability in the job market. So, I think, I'd be inclined to say that we're going to see people that are going to be looking for more stable roles and stable organizations.

Billy Marks (16:03):

I think, especially after this really, emotional few years. So, I think that's one thought. I think the other is, people are starting to become more sensitive to what's really, important to them, in the world. Right. There's this kind of recalibration of, oh my goodness. I was sitting at this desk for nine-hours-a-day, and I really didn't like my job. And there's a little bit of like, okay, I know I want to run away from that, but where do I want to run towards? And so, I think, that's where this kind of alignment, life alignment, values alignment, or day-to-day task alignment. I think has because become so much front and center because of the 24-hour, repeat, rinse, and repeat of the pandemic, I think really, kind of, rang home to us, that, oh, wow, it's the day-to-day life that really makes and breaks my experience as a human. And so, I think people are really, looking for more, I think lifestyle work.

Billy Marks (16:53):

But I think that means is, too, in some ways, when it comes to my clients, is, I use the concept of, when you grow up in a family, and let's say, you grow up in a family of lawyers and then you decide to go to school and study English, and then go to law school. Your external environment around you, looks like one thing, you, kind of, see only one thing ahead of you. Right? And so, I think with a lot of clients that we work with, or people that I engage with, is helping them realize there's other options out there, but maybe, it's just not in their immediate vicinity. Right? And I think that it's trying to work and find new networks of connection, that around people that excite them, that they want to run towards, rather than I don't want to be a lawyer, but I don't know what I want to be. Right?

Billy Marks (17:38):

So, giving them the access to different career options. And I think, as well, I'm seeing a lot of, especially, peers, kind of, post-MBA, really, moving into their own consultancies, or what were called, solo printers, right? Individuals that are going off on their own to offer services or products that they themselves are creating. I think the reason we're seeing an increase in solo entrepreneurship is it gives people more agency and independence over their lives. Right? And I think that's a theme that we're continuing to see.

Billy Marks (18:10):

I also think, one of the most fascinating things that I read last year was, investment bankers and private equity folk were turning down additional pay because they hated their job so much. There was a sequence of individuals that were just asking for a better lifestyle from their employers, and the employers didn't necessarily want to make changes to their work engagements. And so, it offered them, to pay them more, but bankers were turning that down. And so, it's interesting to see, I think, again, that's just an example of people searching for more lifestyle type roles, and seeking, maybe, more stable, consistent employer, employee relationships, where there's more predictability, less chaos and uncertainty. And I think, that those are some of the themes, moving towards certainty and agency, I think, are the themes that I'm seeing in the work that I do.

Omolegho Udugbezi (19:01):

That's super interesting. And I think it would be very cool to see how this plays out in the next couple of years. I think my favorite phrase that you've just used is running towards something. I like that imagery because I rather than just moving or running towards, kind of, signifies your enthusiasm, actually, wanting to be in the job that you're in. So, I hope that I find sometimes to run towards.

Billy Marks (19:19):

Yeah, no, I think, right? And I think, we've all been there, right? You were like, and when I started my first job, as a paralegal, I was like, I don't want to be doing this, but I didn't have a real sense of clarity around what I wanted to move towards. And I think, that point, I looked around me, my boyfriend was a quasi-lawyer, our friends were lawyers, or working in banks. And so, the exposure to that industry was really, high. And, I think, we see this in business school too, where everyone's like, I want to do consulting, and it was like, oh, everyone's going to move in that direction. Right? And I think, a lot of the way that a coach has helped me in my own career, was giving me that third perspective. Right? Really, helping me hone what I want, and what I desire, and the outcomes I want to see in the world. And that was, I think really, the big pivot point, where, oh, this running from, and orienting more towards, a running towards is where, I think, many of us could really, benefit.

Omolegho Udugbezi (20:13):

Yeah, for sure. Okay. So, let's take a step back and think about your time just before, and while you were at business school. So, that very important question. Why do you decide to attend Yale School of Management, as opposed to any other business school?

Billy Marks (20:26):

Yale's, OMS focus on org psych, org behavior, and human capital, I think was one of the biggest selling points for me. Right? I think in working with the coach, at the time, that I was working with, and I realized, oh, I really, do want to do talent, and people work. I want to pivot myself into those spaces. And when I looked at MBA programs, [inaudible 00:20:49]. So, I'm just like, of all of them, really, stood out in that space. Amy Wrzesniewski's, you're taking her class now. Right? Her research was well talked about, then. So, that was a big proponent. And then during welcome weekend, I was chatting with a fellow admin and kind of describing, I'm not sure, I'm still debating, and this person is also in the human capital space. We became very close friends.

Billy Marks (21:16):

She just was like, strongly like, hey, I think that you belong here. And, I think, I like, I want you here, and I belong here. And having someone who was also from an underrepresented background going into the same space, actively calling me in, I was like, oh, that's the environment, and the people that I want to be around. And so, I think I have the head, which was the like, oh, I know I want to move my career in this space. And then the heart of like, oh wow, these people are just really, great. So I think, it was a nice, mixed decision there.

Omolegho Udugbezi (21:44):

Yeah. No, the heart piece resonates with me so much. I feel like everyone I spoke to prior to coming here. I was like, why don't I want to be classmates with these people, everyone's amazing, everyone's so nice. I totally relate to that. So, who are some of your favorite professors apart from, professor Amy, you've already spoken about, and while you're here, any favorite classes or electives?

Billy Marks (22:01):

Yeah. So, the classes that come out to mind were leadership lab, I don't know if it's still around. I loved it, because it was like, a more introverted IPD, you did all this kind of, fun, reflective, development work about your own leadership style. And that was a big basis for some of the coaching work that I do today. I sort of, lean on a lot of the skills I learned from that. I loved global social entrepreneurship and with Tony.

Omolegho Udugbezi (22:27):

Yeah, Tony Sheldon.

Billy Marks (22:27):

Yes. Yeah. We went to South Africa and I, again, some of my closest friends and colleagues are from that course. And then outside of that, I can't say enough, take courses at FDS, right? Or The School of the Environment, now, I guess it's called, I took Renewable Energy Project Finance. And, of all of the finance courses at SOM that was the most rigorous one. And I think all the bankers, still today, are like, oh, I rely on that course the most, but it's just an incredibly, well taught course. So, a big, big plus one to that, just to, if you want to beef up your finance and analytics skills.

Omolegho Udugbezi (23:02):

I've heard the things about that class, and just adding it to my list.

Billy Marks (23:05):

Yeah. Check it out. Yeah.

Omolegho Udugbezi (23:07):

Thank you for sharing. So, were you involved in any student government initiatives, or any clubs here on campus?

Billy Marks (23:13):

Yeah, so I was a co-chair of, the Out of Office Group. So, the LGBTQA+ plus group, I was a workshop facilitator with CBAY, through Greenlight, which was really, fun, bringing in different clients to utilize different design and innovation methods to help them think through creative problem solving. And then, I was a career advisor, surprisingly, or not, so surprisingly. And, also, in my first year was pretty involved with the Design and Innovation Club, really, focused on student experience. And then my favorite experience was being an orientation leader with that fellow individual, who really encouraged me to come to SOM. It was just so fun to welcome, entering first-year SOM students, and get to kind of, shape their first few days on campus.

Omolegho Udugbezi (24:00):

You did all the clubs, you were so busy, but it sounds-

Billy Marks (24:03):

I was busy. I left school very tired, as I'm sure many people do.

Omolegho Udugbezi (24:07):

You made the most of it, that's the important thing.

Billy Marks (24:09):

I did. Yes.

Omolegho Udugbezi (24:10):

So, if you hadn't come to business school, what do you think you'd be doing now? Do you think you'd still be working in the talent people space?

Billy Marks (24:17):

That's a great question. I do. And it's interesting because I just got connected with a former colleague of mine who started the first LGBTQ advocacy group, like a formal position at JP Morgan, focused on that work. And so, rather than it all be volunteers, it's now a formalized position. So, it's really, cool to see A, how something's change in just a few years. So, seeing that, I'm like, oh wow, I guess they could have stayed there and done this work. Right? And kind of made a career out of it. So, I do think that I'd probably be in a similar space, but maybe still at my old firm, or maybe still in New York, which is where I was. I think SOM really, helped me, kind of, pivot to a new industry, and a new location in ways. But yeah, I love this work, and I think I'd still be in it, somehow.

Omolegho Udugbezi (25:08):

That's great to hear. Do you have any career advice for anyone who's thinking about attending business school? Just one piece of advice for them.

Billy Marks (25:16):

One piece of advice.

Omolegho Udugbezi (25:17):

Apart from coming to SOM.

Billy Marks (25:19):

What would my advice be? I would write down all, of the things that you think it will do for you, whether that's a year out, five years out and 10 years out. Either play devil's advocate yourself, or ask someone else to play devil's advocate, and really, ask yourself, and test those assumptions. Right? Like for example, do you really, need to, take out X, Y, Z, number of dollars, to do the type of thing you want to do. Is that really, important to you? And so, I think, just writing down what your motivators are, and seeing if there're alternates to achieving those outcomes, I think will just really help you gain confidence that it's either the right decision, or maybe you need more information to decide if it is the right decision. Right? I think that would be my point of advice, because it's a huge investment. Right?

Omolegho Udugbezi (26:11):

Yeah.

Billy Marks (26:11):

And I think, there's so much value though, I think it's just important to feel really, good about, that you're making the right choice. Right? Ultimately.

Omolegho Udugbezi (26:19):

Of course, that's great advice. If our listeners want to follow you, follow your work, and reach out to you, where's the best place to find you?

Billy Marks (26:26):

Yeah. They can find me on LinkedIn, Billy Marks. You can also reach me at billy@sparreyconsulting.com, and I'm happy to email correspond with you.

Omolegho Udugbezi (26:37):

Amazing. Thank you. And do you have a favorite book or podcast or resource in general about, kind of, developing yourself in an event career, that you'd like to share with people?

Billy Marks (26:48):

Ooh. I had an answer for this that wasn't around developing your career. I, actually, think Hidden Brain, if you haven't heard of it, I think it's an MPR based podcast with Shankar Vedantam. He's a psychologist, I forget where he's based, but it's called Hidden Brain, and the concept is new research in psychology, and it's just so helpful sometimes to see and hear about research that's happening, or interesting kind of human experiences, and you're like, oh wait, that's actually something I do, that's interesting, and so it kind of, helps be another, it's a fun little educational podcast.

Billy Marks (27:25):

And then, honestly, this is going to sound really, funny. I recently read Marie Kondo's joy at work, which is a spinoff of her whole KonMari method of reorganizing your life and simplifying. And she really, I think it's co-written with an org, psych professor based out of a Southern University. I can't recall. I'm blanking on his name, sorry, but it kind of brings the concept of getting rid of the clutter in your workspace, and then your work life, and your workday to make more space for what you want to run towards. So, I found on that like, hey, if you're not happy with what's going on, maybe read this book, it's a hundred pages, and it will help really, declutter, I think some of the unnecessary stuff that you don't need in your life to make room for what you want.

Omolegho Udugbezi (28:22):

You've been listening to career conversations, a podcast from the Yale School of Management. If you like, what you heard today, please subscribe. You can find us at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or however, you take your podcasts. If you're already subscriber, please go to Apple Podcast and rate us, or leave us a review. That's a great way to let other people know about the show. Create Conversations is produced by Yale SOM. Our producer for this episode is Amy Kundrat. Our editor is Laurie Toth    Thanks for listening. And we hope you'll tune in again soon.